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FamilyChristian.com: dc talk has been involved in racial reconciliation since the band formed in 1989. Tell me more about the E.R.A.C.E. Foundation.

Michael: The E.R.A.C.E. foundation was started by Toby, Kevin and myself because we looked at ourselves as living integration-a black guy and 2 white guys speaking from the same platform about the same issues and trying to bridge the gap. I don't think I've ever seen that on the political stage or on the musical stage, where a black advocate and a white advocate would get up and speak the same message. We all see our generation as a segue generation, a generation that can be the go-between, the bridge builder between the gross, ugly, stinky past and hopefully build something better for the future, for those coming up behind us.

FamilyChristian.com: What does the acronym E.R.A.C.E mean?

Michael: E.R.A.C.E. stands for Eliminating Racism And Creating Equality. I always say that we're not trying to get rid of the problem in an hour or a concert or even a day. It's just making people aware that the thing's still an issue. [It's challenging them to] make a conscious effort to physically get up and leave that zone they're so comfortable with and make a concerted effort to approach people of different colors and befriend them.

FamilyChristian.com: E.R.A.C.E. sponsored the University Tour event you headlined in Grand Rapids, MI. What happened that day?

Michael: [We started out with] chapel in the morning with Pastor Chris Williamson, author of Divided By Faith. He's a white guy [who] left his big time paying job and suburban home and moved into the inner city. He's been there ever since, for years, living among blacks, Hispanics, whoever is in the inner city. He's an amazing, amazing speaker, pastor of an integrated church called A Strong Tower in Franklin, Tennessee. And then [the evening concert included] DJ Form from Grits, Sammy Ward, Tait and film footage. And then we had an MC, John Gray [formerly of Kirk Frankin's Nu Nation]. It's a pretty loaded night. [Editor's note: Learn more about the E.R.A.C.E. foundation at www.erace.com].

FamilyChristian.com: So looking back at the last ten years, how would you say that America has changed in terms of racial reconciliation? Are we better? Are we there?

Michael: Look at [the people in this room]…look at where we all stand. What do you honestly think about black people today? These guys from the Northwest have each told me separately that they were shocked when they heard certain things about racial injustices. I'm happy that they can see that and be offended by it because they haven't been exposed. [But the only person that can be as] dangerous as the person who would venture to say "nigger" or "black trash" or "white trash" is the person who has no clue about it because they're walking blind into a mine field. You're not dismissed because you don't know. Ignorance is bliss. Its motive would be, "Well if I knew about it, I would not do…"

Pete: If we were in Germany during the Nazi era, I'm sure we would all think we would not at all go along with what Hitler was doing to the Jews, but how do we know? The scary thing about racism and prejudice is that it's part of the sinful nature that we all inherit. That's why I think it [requires] effort [to combat]. If it wasn't a natural part of our human condition, then we wouldn't have to have events to educate people about racism. But because we have this sinful nature, and we look at things in a flawed way apart from God, we actually have to make an effort.

I think you can look at the state of our country today and at least on the surface, say it has gotten better. I was just talking to my dad and he was telling me about when he used to be stationed-he was a military police officer-in North Carolina. He grew up in Washington state where you don't really hear much about racial issues. He went over to North Carolina and said there was one black police officer who was assigned to this city, just on one side of the train tracks and he wasn't even allowed to have a car. He had to walk everywhere he went. [My dad] was just shocked. I think of our generation and I can honestly say I can't imagine what it would be like to see that because it's so foreign, which is a good thing, but I think we still have a huge aftermath going on, just the sins of our country…

FamilyChristian.com: Like what Exodus 34:7 says about the sins of the father being carried out to the third and fourth generation? That's us!

Pete: I actually get scared sometimes when I think about the way we treated slaves, the whole Civil War and everything like that. Sometimes I think we Northwest boys like to pretend we have no sins in our closet and then I look at what we did to the Native Americans. I honestly get scared that our day of punishment is going to be coming and we're not doing something about it. It's just a huge consequence of sin. I think those things show me why God has certain laws in the Bible. [He shows us the] way we're supposed to live our lives and when you don't do it right, there are consequences to pay. That's why you have strife and tension today, and prejudices and uncomfortableness. I don't know if it will ever go away but I think we're supposed to try to do everything we can to make it go away.

FamilyChristian.com: Coming at this from a spiritual perspective, what is the call to action that you're issuing to believers?

Pete: I think sometimes with issues like this, we as Christians tend to get used to thinking in our own circle, in our own kind of subculture. It's like we've got the big bad world out there but if we're all comfortable together then everything's okay. I think we are supposed to impact culture and impact people who aren't in our churches, who aren't coming in contact with Christian circles…to the point where I would say it's actually sinful that we avoid that so much.

I have the same take on abortion. I have friends of mine who are involved with abortion activism and they don't necessarily try to just convert someone to an anti-abortion stance by throwing a bunch of scriptures at them but just trying to tell them what's wrong with abortion. I would say the same thing with racism because if someone's not a believer, I could show them scriptures all day long, but we don't have that in common. They don't believe in that so that's not going to convince them of anything. But I can ask them, "Why is this person any less equal than you are?" I could apply that to an unborn child or a person of different skin color.

Michael: I agree. Truth is truth. Integration is not reconciliation, because you're forced to do something. We were forced to send black kids to white schools and vice versa, that doesn't mean that it was from the heart. I heard a story the other day about the NCAA having a tournament in Georgia and the blacks in power said, "We're not going to go there until they take the flag down." Of course they took the flag down. We cause riots over a sporting event while people in other countries are fighting for freedom and food. We're fighting over a stupid little event with a little orange ball. It doesn't matter a hill of beans but that's how pathetic we've become. The truth is what I want to get across most importantly.

I think of Sting and Peter Gabriel who fight for the rainforest. And Tait…more than dc talk, I have a feeling we're going to have that moniker put on us. What makes E.R.A.C.E. work is the black guy with white guys. I take it with pride but it's not something I'm proud of. I wish we didn't have to talk about it. Nobody wants to dwell on it but it needs to be…I'm pretty passionate about it. Truth is everything and I think for us carrying this E.R.A.C.E. moniker around and from time to time putting that hat on and doing a show like this, the E.R.A.C.E. foundation tour, raises the awareness once again. But also as Christians, I don't think it's even a problem with skin color. I think what it really boils down to is sin. It's just masked by the fact that it's skin. If it wasn't that, we'd be fighting like U2 and the rest of the Irish people, with Protestants and Catholicism. It's always something but at the end of the day, it's sin. It's man being his greedy, fleshly self, man being controlled by greed and a capitalistic mentality of servanthood and subjection. It's age old-just read the Old Testament in the Bible.

FamilyChristian.com: It's interesting, going back to the whole idea of this comfortable Christian subculture. American Christianity tends to take sins that are okay and sins that are not okay…

Michael: Like homosexuality versus the deacon and the pastor's wife hooking up. Hello? Sin. They have different consequences on earth and in front of people but the fact is that Johnny who thinks he's a girl needs help too. We had that conversation at the radio station this morning about certain songs on our record and edgier records that artists put out. We just kind of pick and choose, "Yeah Jesus" is a lot more easy to swallow than the other side. I don't think we've had had a writer since Larry Norman that really just hit you between the eyes and said, "You know what? You want the Gospel? Can you handle the truth?"

FamilyChristian.com: How would you challenge someone reading this who maybe thinks racism is a thing of the past or at least doesn't happen in their community?

Lonnie: We need to set aside our selfishness and put ourselves in someone else's shoes Ask yourself, "How would I feel about the things that are going through my mind and what I'm about to say to them?"

Michael: The biggest problem is still a structural thing. Probably the biggest question I hear today from a lot of white kids, people my age and younger, is, "Well, we didn't do it to you." I'm like, "Yeah, but you're benefiting from the system that was set up by the white man." It's like if I come to you and I beat you up and rob you and take your wife's rings and jewelry out of your house and I come to my senses and I come back to you and go, "You know what dude, I'm sorry, man. Let's be friends again." Something's still missing there. It's called reconciliation. It's called the full 360. It's called, "Can I have my jewelry back now?" The things you took from my house, can you figure out how to replace them? Reparations.

I'm not saying you can go back to every black and every whatever. As Pete said earlier, the stone is beginning to roll. Inner cities are not some political or humanistic phenomenon, like how did this happen? Well, it's real simple how it happened. Look at what's happened down through history. Black on black crime. More black men under the age of 25 in jail than the population of some small countries. It's what happens. It's called the sins of our forefathers. When a person realizes and understands that and takes the time to educate themselves on just a few of the things that happened, a few of the things in history, it's pretty shocking.

Lonnie: I think it comes down to two things. It's simple. It's pride and selfishness.

FamilyChristian.com: And that's the root of any sin, whether it's racism or anything else.

Pete: I think a lot the things we're talking about go beyond just the definition we think of as racism. It's any kind of prejudice at all. In the neighborhood where I grew up, I probably saw a handful of black people in my whole childhood. I could count them on one hand until I got older and moved to Seattle. But that doesn't mean that I've never had issues with prejudice. If I see someone who dresses completely different than me, I automatically think they're this one kind of person. I think the goal is to get people to realize that that's such an ungodly way to think. God accepts us no matter who we are, what we are, what group we fit into or don't fit into.

The unfortunate thing is that as Christians [it seems like we'd rather] not get that through our thick skulls. It seems like every time a Christian gets called on one of the "big" sins we were talking about earlier, and confesses it, we still just beat them up instead of using the kind of forgiveness that God displays in the Bible. All the stuff we're talking about…basically the goal for us is to become more and more Christ-like. It's just amazing when you think of how the world really would be if we really were Christ-like. It's like Tait was just saying, I could say, "Well, I'm not the one who enslaved your ancestors" but I'm still a part of that sinful nature race of people that we all are a part of.

Michael: Some of my black friends back at home ask me, "So why are you in a rock and roll band?" Just the very fact that they would even ask me that insinuates that you're not supposed to because you're black so you should play basketball, eat fried chicken and collard greens and chittlins'. Stereotypes might work for a few scientific observations. I'm sure they have their purpose but to be pigeon-holed by a stereotype and to be defined by a stereotype…I will not be defined by somebody's stupid stereotype, ever. As a matter of fact, I like breaking them just because it's gross to me. "You're black…you've got to be doing R&B, dude, come on." No, I like rock and roll.

Chad: Going back to your first question about racism, as far as, "Have we gotten closer?" I think we have. I think one of the biggest tools and probably the only good thing that MTV has ever done has really created that whole image of bringing the whites and blacks together. Never before have we ever seen white kids in a suburban area listening to hip-hop, just cranking it, giving the "Whasssup?"

Empty by Tait

Michael: E.R.A.C.E. is the kind of thing I think MTV would support if we did it on a wider scale because it's not too "Christianese." It's a world problem. We know what we're trying to accomplish here, more than just let's get along with black and white. We try to spread the love of Christ. But to them it's just another cool organization.

FamilyChristian.com: That's a good point. A lot of times as Christians, we think God can only work through Christian means. We put God in this great little box and say, "You can only work in this way because that's the only way that I can understand it."

Pete: Bob Briner's book [Roaring Lambs] has so challenged me to think outside the box. Because what we forget is that we're the ones who created that dumb box in the first place. There was no Christian music industry in the Bible times or Christian TV or whatever you want to look at. Even the guys in P.O.D. get flack when they're opening up for Korn or Kid Rock or on the Howard Stern show. People are saying, "How can you be a part of these things? How can you put yourself in a position where you're on stage with someone like that" and they're like, "We might have been the only Christians that Howard Stern ever met that whole year." As soon as you kind of get outside of the religious way we think about our own environment, obviously we should be doing a lot more to affect the world around us.

FamilyChristian.com: dc talk has affected fans in both mainstream and Christian music arenas for years. What has influenced you?

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