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A FamilyChristian.com Exclusive Interview
Josh & Shannon Harris
with Rebecca St. James
Dating And Waiting

The publishing world was shocked in 1995 when a teen-oriented dating book made a meteoric rise to the top of bestseller lists. Written by a barely-post-teen, Josh Harris, Kissed Dating Goodbye hit the collective nerve of a generation wary and weary of ambiguous interactions with the opposite sex. Embracing the concept of intentional courtship, the success of Josh's book proved that teens and singles were looking for more than dating rules-they wanted to know how to purposefully pursue a spouse in a God-pleasing and other-honoring manner. The book has become required reading for many youth groups and single circles debated the dating v. courtship issue. Spawning growth in a much-neglected genre, other books were written in direct response or correlation to Josh's premise, including I Gave Dating a Chance, Boundaries in Dating and Choosing God's Best. Shortly after the publication of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Josh put his theories into practice by courting and marrying Shannon. Their story is told in Boy Meets Girl. Rebecca St. James has been a mainstay of the Christian music scene since the 1994 release of her self-titled debut at the tender age of sixteen. As an artist, Rebecca is passionate about her platforms: evangelism, worship and abstinence. Now 24, Rebecca is enjoying the success of her fifth album, Transform. The #1 hit single from that album, "Wait For Me" was birthed out of hopeful anticipation for her future husband. The song has become an anthem for Josh Harris fans as well, promising hope for those who wonder if they are the only ones waiting, and grace for those who wish they would have. Rebecca, Josh and Shannon sat down with FamilyChristian.com to discuss the dating dilemma.

FamilyChristian.com: Josh, you caused quite a stir with your first book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Let's start with a little clarification. How would you define the difference between dating and courtship?

Boy Meets Girl

I use "courtship" to describe a relationship that is purposeful, that is defined and has the intention of exploring the possibility of marriage. I think that's important because one of the problems that I've seen in typical dating relationships is that they lack direction, they lack definition and they're often started even though neither person is interested in actually marrying the other person. But I'm not using courtship to define a list of rules. I'm not saying courtship means you have to go to the parents first and then you do this, step two, three, four come next…It's not about a list of rules or method. It's a word to describe a purposeful relationship.

FamilyChristian.com: As part of that intentionality, do you think that courtship involves a designated period of time? For example, we're going to court for the next 6 months, and then make a decision.

Josh: I don't like to put a specific length of time on any relationship. I think it's too easy to impose your own experience on other circumstances that are different. I don't think that's helpful but I do think each person has to ask the question, "Are we still being intentional if it's gone on this amount of time?" The guiding principles can help us ask the questions: "Are we afraid of taking the next step toward commitment?" "Are we asking the right questions and pursuing the depth of friendship that allows us to have the confidence to either cut it off or to pursue marriage?"

Shannon: Every step, every day that we go forward is a day that we're affirming that we're on track with this. If someone has hesitation they need to communicate that.

Josh: If the length of time is a matter of just selfishly enjoying the relationship for the sake of what it's giving you instead of really caring for the person and asking, "Where is this heading?" and so on, that a problem.

FamilyChristian.com: What Shannon said really contradicts a lot of romantic relationships. I think the tendency is not to see the continuation of a relationship as confirmation of the relationship. I think a lot of women, especially, tend to get impatient and think, "Okay, can we define the relationship? We need to have that D.T.R. now. Where are we at?"

Josh: And that's like 10 minutes into the relationship! [laughs]. That's not just a girl problem. I think that that has resulted from the fact that so many guys have not led so the girl is in this constant state of, "I don't really know where this is at."

FamilyChristian.com: Shannon, how was your process of courtship with Josh, as opposed to just blindly dating, quell fears that you may have had about entering marriage?

Shannon: The idea of courtship really appealed to me because so many of my past relationships were open ended and usually ended with me breaking up with a guy after two years. When I became a Christian, my whole framework for relationships changed. In our church culture it just happened to be that a lot people adopted Josh's values and teaching methods. You [Josh] definitely helped and defined it. So for me, personally, it was like, "Okay, I did that. I don't want to do that ever again. Now God I'm waiting for You and I'm not touching another guy until it's my husband."

FamilyChristian.com: If you were to write a review for Boy Meets Girl, how would you describe it?

Josh: That's a really interesting question because I'm aware of the praise that it's received. I'm also very aware of criticisms that I've read from different reviewers. I Kissed Dating Goodbye was a book that I could only have written while I was single, in the midst of all the questions, and Boy Meets Girl is a book that I could only have written after having done I Kissed Dating Goodbye and walked through it.

FamilyChristian.com: Boy Meets Girl is more personal in the sense that it's your story. I think Josh has a reputation for having a pure past. Shannon, how did you feel about having some of your past out there for everyone to read and see?

Shannon: From the very beginning, we would go to these conferences and people would think, "Oh, Josh is going to marry the perfect home-schooled little girl who never sinned and saved herself for marriage too." And it was really neat because we saw how God really used my past to complement his message. There will be people lined up to talk to me because they have struggled with what I've been through. I guess God gave me that desire to share because I wanted people to be able to relate to us. But it was hard. There were a lot of tears shed when that chapter was written and reminders…I don't really reread that chapter very often!

I Kissed Dating Goodbye

The truth is that only God is going to make that possible. Even if you are someone who has made all the mistakes, you've had sex before marriage, you've done everything wrong in relationships, because of the cross, you can be made new and you can build your marriage on what it needs to be built on and that's God's grace. And so Shannon, through her humility, has really become a trophy of God's grace. That's something we felt the Lord speak to us early on, that God wants to take her story and use it to minister to people. I've gotten some really terrible letters from people. They're like, "How could you marry this person that's not a virgin?" all these things, and I just think, "You know, Lord, show them mercy. Humble them." If there are people out there that have, because they're a virgin or whatever, become proud, they need to realize that they need the cross just as much as anyone else and there shouldn't be any of that sense of boasting in what we've done.

FamilyChristian.com: Rebecca, you wrote the song "Waiting For Me" or your future husband. Have you ever been in a courtship relationship? And as a follow-up question, how do you think you'll know if someone's right for you?

Transform

To answer your question, I haven't really been very involved. I suppose you could say I was kind of courting. We weren't officially going out or anything like that. Neither of us really felt a peace about fully pursuing the relationship. We were just kind of getting to know each other and being friends and kind of seeing what came out of that. Nothing ended up happening out of that.

But how will I know? I think there will be a lot of things. I think there will be the peace from God. I was reading in my devotions recently about being led by His peace. It was in my devotions by William Barclay. It's called The Daily Study Bible Series. But you can't take that [alone] because you could then base [your decision] just on feelings. So I think also my family and close friends seeing that this is something that is wonderful and seeing both of us blossom from knowing the other person. I think that church accountability and having a supportive church family is important. I think he needs to be the spiritual leader and have a like-mindedness of vision for life. There's so many things that need to add up. I want a bunch of kids too, so he's got to love kids.

FamilyChristian.com: How do you protect your heart but at the same time be open enough to let someone else get to know you?

Rebecca: Chihuahua! She puts out the big one!

Josh: Well, since I'm the expert on relationships [laughs]…I think that sometimes people can get all weirded out when they think about guarding their heart because [they think] "What does that mean? How do I do that? What does it look like?" It comes into play in relationships by keeping your trust in God and guarding yourself from assuming things about what's going to happen. I think that if God has given you faith to begin a courtship-if you want to use that word-that's defined and intentional and you see the character of this person and so on, that you can be very open with them. Being guarded, I don't think necessarily means that you don't let them see who you are or reveal your values and so on. But I think a big part of it is making the decision not to have the kind of conversations or the kind of interaction that is promising more than you've been willing to speak in terms of, "This is where our relationship is." For example, when Shannon and I were in our courtship, we wouldn't have conversations about planning weddings or anything like that.

Shannon: Right, or what kind of house we wanted to live in when we were married.

Josh: Exactly. But we would have serious conversations about our values about marriage and children and those kinds of things. Those were important issues but they weren't the kind of conversations that were assuming that that was going to happen. It was constantly, "If the Lord wills this will go forward." I think a good guiding principle is to say, "I need to be willing to trust God that He will care for me, even if this relationship ends." There's got to be a faith because if you don't have that you [can make the relationship] an idol and you're trying to hold on to it and manipulate it and make sure that they see the right thing and not the wrong thing. So you have to have that faith and you do need to be open because if you're really going to serve them, you can't be hiding who you are. They need to be able to make an informed decision about the relationship. But you need to guard your heart by not placing a trust in the relationship or needing to have it work out in a certain way so that all your confidence is in that. You shouldn't be devastated by a relationship ending. Yes, it can hurt and there can be tears and there can be sorrow that it didn't work out maybe the way you wanted, but to be devastated, I think, reveals that there was an idol there. There was a level of hope placed in that relationship that really should only be placed in God.

FamilyChristian.com: That seems to bring up the big question: how can single people, who wants to be married, both guard their heart and be open to a relationship?

Rebecca: In my experience I've really struggled with being too guarded and being too fearful and just shutting myself off. I'm really good at being friends with guys but if it gets anything much more than that, I'm not comfortable. That's been a part of my protection from getting involved when I couldn't get married, but now I'm at a point where I can. And it's a little interesting trying to juggle not being guarded in light of the whole thing of "there is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear." That's a very challenging verse to me, just having my love so rooted in God that I'm whole and secure in Him enough to be able to be vulnerable with someone else. To take a chance, take a risk but be wise.

At the same time then, when I meet someone fantastic, it's easy for me to go on the other side of the scale and go, "Okay, I'm really excited." I'm so impatient so it's that whole balance thing. It's almost walking a tightrope of balance and saying, "Okay, I want to be wise and patient but I also want to be vulnerable" and let that person see who I am. But I think the key is having that love and security in God and both parties being willing to cry out to God and say, "God, we don't necessarily know what to do but we want Your wisdom." And another thing for me is trusting in the guy's leadership and letting him set the pace for the relationship.

FamilyChristian.com: You bring up a good point about considering whether or not you're even ready for a marriage relationship so you can avoid starting something you can't finish. I think that's a pretty way of distinguishing the difference between the audiences for each of your books.

Josh: That was one area where I wanted to keep these two books very distinct. The emphasis in I Kissed Dating Goodbye was to be willing to wait. So often we're pursuing when we're not ready. This is what it looks like to be ready and let's make the most of this time while we're single. And so Boy Meets Girl does start a little bit with the assumption that you're in a place where you're able to consider marriage so I don't repeat I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

FamilyChristian.com: How would you encourage never-been-married singles in their 30s or older who want to honor God in their dating life but think they're past anyone wanting them because no one's pursued them?

Josh: Well, I've just seen so many real life stories to the contrary. I would encourage that person to say, "Just because nothing's happened so far doesn't mean that God can't do something." Never put anything in the "Beyond the Power of God" box. I also would remind them that marriage is not something you can demand of God. The most important thing, our greatest need is to be saved from God's wrath and He's accomplished that through His Son. You need to be able to look to that as the reminder of God's character and not look at our single status or anything else and say, "God's not faithful. God's forgotten me." We need to constantly be reminding ourselves of the Gospel and that, I think, can give us the joy, day by day, even in the situation we would prefer to be different. It's not easy. I don't pretend to have been there, walked through that, so I always want to speak very carefully because I know those struggles are real. There are many people in our church that are in their 30s and 40s and 50s and never been married so I deeply respect them for just serving and loving their life, loving God and pursuing friendships.

Rebecca: I think one thing that maybe helps the waiting is just having a sense of preparation and still being open to, "Okay, maybe it's God's will for me to be single but I'm going to be prepared for marriage either way. I'm going to be growing myself as a man or woman of God." If you're a woman, [there are things like] growing in femininity and being prepared [for roles] as a wife and mother, being able to cook and preparing yourself in that way. If you're a man, being a godly leader and spiritually growing yourself. So that kind of helps bide the time. But then there are the singles that say, "But I've done all that. I've been prepared for ten years."

I had a guy [in his mid-twenties] come up to me recently and he's like, "You know, all these people are putting pressure on me to date someone but, I'm not feeling the pressure [from God]. What do I do? Should I be out there getting in the game?" And I said, "Hey, one of the philosophies I've had is if God hasn't brought someone into your life that you feel is a potential mate and has the characteristics that He's put on your heart for that potential mate, then you have nothing to worry about." But if you've purposely seen someone that you know could be that future mate and you've closed yourself off because of fear, I think that's something to worry about. I think I've done it too. I think we all have. But if God hasn't brought anyone like that into your life…I don't think God wants us out there checking out the market. I just feel like God's bigger than that. He's going to bring someone into our lives.

FamilyChristian.com: And nowhere in my Bible does it say I'm supposed to focus on what I don't have.

Shannon: Just like, who says you have to get married in your 20s or even 30s? God's plan doesn't look the same for everyone. Wasn't it Sarah in the Bible who had her first child when she was 90? You think it's supposed to look a certain way and God chooses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. For some people it just doesn't look like it looks for the majority of people. It's a struggle. It's a very real struggle.

FamilyChristian.com: I think that's a real test too, like you were saying, "But I've done all that preparation."

Josh: I am so inspired by singles who say, "You know, I am called to be a man of God. I'm called to be a woman-apart from marriage. Marriage doesn't make us masculine or make us feminine. What Rebecca said is so true. There is that element of preparation but there's also that element where you are glorifying God by being who He's called you to be. You can be feminine. You can use your home as a place of hospitality and warmth. You can be using those God-given, feminine, mothering, if you will, instincts and gifts. Amy Carmichael is another wonderful example. There are many wrong ideas about marriage, that marriage is the thing that completes us or makes us able to operate in these different ways and that's not true. One of the things I hear from a lot of people who read I Kissed Dating Goodbye is, "I've never been told that singleness is a gift." Not like lifelong singleness necessarily but any season of it. They just are blown away by that. And that needs to be trumpeted more. Marriage is wonderful. Marriage is created by God and yet throughout Scripture we're always reminded that singleness is an incredible opportunity to serve.

FamilyChristian.com: We all know that men and women are wired differently, but I think singles tend to underestimate the other's propensities. In general, for men, it's very tempting to project physically. For women, it's very easy to project emotionally. You suggest that couples pray together yet for a woman who's looking for a man to be a spiritual leader, praying with someone can be a tempting situation emotionally. What are your thoughts on that?

Josh: I tried to qualify that statement about guarding the setting in which you're praying.

FamilyChristian.com: Not in the backseat of a car.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. I honestly know couples who turned prayer into other things. I do think it's important that the guy and the girl be very honest about how different things affect them. I think it would be important for the woman to be honest-and Shannon and I would have these kinds of conversations-and ask, "How are you doing in guarding your heart? Are there any things that I'm doing that's making that a struggle?" And that's the opportunity for the woman to say, "You know what? I really appreciate praying with you but that makes it difficult for me to hold this relationship with open hands. That takes my heart places it shouldn't be" and there's nothing wrong with saying, "Let's not pray together." So I wouldn't say you need to be praying together. You need to be honest about how different things affect you.

FamilyChristian.com: Boy Meets Girl includes a great quote from a woman who said, "I don't want the way that I dress or the way I act to prevent guys from seeing me as their sister in Christ." What would you say to the guys who may not realize that women respond emotionally the same way that men respond physically or visually?

Josh: I would encourage them to start by looking at their own heart and examining whether they want to truly bless their sisters. Do they find their confidence bolstered because they know that so and so is hanging on or whatever it might be? Am I placing myself before my sisters? So that's the first question to ask. But I think a lot of it has to do with talking about the future, a lot of it has to do with how you show interest. I think guys need to be much more aware of, "How am I relating to the sisters in my life? Am I being consistent with the way I do that? Am I isolating one person, showering a lot of attention, compared to how I treat other girls?" If there's not an interest there, it's important to pull back and to make sure that there's consistency. I remember when I was single, one of the girls in our church coming to me and challenging me, "Josh, a lot of times when you talk to people, you'll grab their arm. I know that has caused different girls to struggle [with what it means.]" And I was so convicted. I saw that I was not making my focus, "Okay, who are my brothers who I can be serving and building relationships."

FamilyChristian.com: It's a little ironic that you minister to singles when you were single for such a short period of time.

Josh: Well, I didn't ever have a master plan, like, "Okay I'm going to position myself to minister to singles." It all just sort of unfolded, starting with writing a magazine for high schoolers, and [relationships] being a huge topic, obviously. I did not want to write a follow-up book to I Kissed Dating Goodbye and that was just pride, because I was like, "I'm not going to be pigeonholed as the relationship guy. I'm going to show people that I've got more depth than that." Just stupid pride. And so people in my life who care about me and are wiser than I am challenged me on that and said, "This is where God has used you. There are a lot of questions that are unanswered. You have just gone through this relationship, this courtship, and God has taught you a lot. You should write this next book." And so that happened, but it wasn't like I was saying, "I'm going to minister to singles." There are many people that are much more qualified, have so much more experience, so much more wisdom, and the fact that God has used this is incredible to me.

FamilyChristian.com: There's a lot of misconceptions about what courtship is and isn't. What advice do you have for guys wanting to pursue a courtship?

Josh: Start by praying. Start by asking the Lord to use everything that you say and do to point to Him instead of setting out to show that you're the courtship king or something. Because a lot of people can make this a pride issue: "I'm going to be such an example to these people. I'm going to show them how evil dating is." People can just smell that arrogance. They can sense it and get turned off by it. So start with humility and remind yourself that, "The only reason I'm wanting to do this a certain way is because I want to please God."

In my relationship with Shannon, her parents are not Christians. They're wonderful people but Shannon's dad was not a spiritual leader so I pursued that [aspect] in other areas. So even before I approached Shannon, I talked to the guy who was her small group leader, who really cared for her. I talked to my pastor as well. And I got the counsel of others who knew me and also knew Shannon. I didn't call her dad. That's such a courtship thing to need to do that. I would have loved to have done that but it wouldn't have served her dad. It would have made it awkward for him. So instead, I talked to Shannon first and asked if she was even interested. Then I called him the next day. So immediately I was seeking to honor him by letting him know I really cared about him being involved in [the process]. I wanted him to be excited about it. And I told him at that point, "I don't know what God's going to do but I'm not going propose to your daughter until I talk to you." He was just like, "Oh that's so cool. That's so old-fashioned."

Shannon: I know girls in our church that have a brother they really trust or they have some older male in their life that they respect. And they ask that guy, "Would you be willing to be the go-between if a guy is interested in me?"

FamilyChristian.com: Shannon, So what do your folks think now that not only did Josh court you, but he married you and he is the courtship king?

Shannon: Well, my parents are a little bit out of the loop [of what's going on in Christian circles] because they're not Christians. But they really love him and respect him so much because he does involve them. He loves me and they see that.

Jen Abbas, a writer in Grand Rapids, Mich.

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